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title:“Robert R. Livingston's Notes of the New York Ratification Convention Debates”
authors:Robert R. Livingston
date written:1788-6-25

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https://consource.org/document/robert-r-livingstons-notes-of-the-new-york-ratification-convention-debates-1788-6-25/20130122082442/
last updated:Jan. 22, 2013, 8:24 a.m. UTC
retrieved:Dec. 12, 2019, 4:29 p.m. UTC

transcription
citation:
Livingston, Robert R.. "Robert R. Livingston's Notes of the New York Ratification Convention Debates." The Documentary History of the Ratification of the Constitution. Vol. 22. Ed. John P. Kaminski. Madison: Wisconsin Historical Society Press, 2008. 1885-86. Print.
manuscript
source:
Robert R. Livingston, Notes, New-York Historical Society

Robert R. Livingston's Notes of the New York Ratification Convention Debates (June 25, 1788)

SMITH. Amendmt 2 Objs. recal—rotation-— Argt. not weight as 2d po.— Agrees shd. have more Stability. does not follow shd. be perpetual— rotation less temptation fraud— Senate perpetual body. partialy changed not whole— create dependance—Every govt. shd. be provision for rotation Contrary principles government any branch fixed & permanent body— May break up faction—prevail in our own Councils— Ques: do they less prevail Congress where is rotation Brings forward more men into business— All government restraint upon natural Liberty therefore rotation not more so— Qualification age—residence— Note [restd.?] supposed want qualifications— that no great inconvenience in changing men more than two in State— Part [unrepresented?] 2d part. Senate represents State— Man right recal his agent— Argt. from instability tho applies to people not Legislature Improbable exercise right Not an surprize—but hearing his defence— Appd. them to preserve rights State & now fear to make dep[enden]t least should preserve those rights— Whether people retain any respect for State Govt. when powers insignificant Ques: what power does it take away? taxation— State Govt. no offices—not 5 valuable offices— State Gt. Judges in States—Supervisors Assessors—Excise &c. Line shd be drawn clearly as to power State governments—Shd therefore have power to remove— Interest every State interest whole Old confederation no established rule—here rights each State determined— Argt. agt necessity recall— Wishes prejudices may exist— Factious men who wish for place not recall least same thing happens to him— not to be supposed— Corruption. peoples money corrupt members— foreign powers— Offices when members when they go out Money unaccounted for—Officers generally corrupt Council appointmt. cant be elected two yrs.— Govr. power limited nominate all off[icers]
* * * * *
SMITH. in reply to [Alexander Hamilton] factions may exist—negotiations secret— fact[ions] have actualy existed— Rotation then not prevent it— Senate great powers; without house [of] representatives officers— Give Excise Rotation Worst of it confines experience on set men others not brought forward—
* * * * *
LANSING. obtain rights not part wth. tho disunited—
* * * * *
JONES. 4 Sect: under consideration latter part may at pleasure be deprived votes— calls for explanation proposes a[mendment] &c
* * * * *
CLINTON. No different interest between people & Legislature Legislature express sense constituents—
* * * * *
SMITH. That neither State or Congress change election proposes a division of States into districts—
SAMUEL JONES opposes on principle that what may suit one State does not suit another—

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