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title:“Robert R. Livingston's Notes of the New York Ratification Debates”
authors:Robert R. Livingston
date written:1788-6-23

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to this version:
https://consource.org/document/robert-r-livingstons-notes-of-the-new-york-ratification-debates-1788-6-23/20130122083057/
last updated:Jan. 22, 2013, 8:30 a.m. UTC
retrieved:Dec. 15, 2019, 5:41 p.m. UTC

transcription
citation:
Livingston, Robert R.. "Robert R. Livingston's Notes of the New York Ratification Debates." The Documentary History of the Ratification of the Constitution. Vol. 22. Ed. John P. Kaminski. Madison: Wisconsin Historical Society Press, 2008. 1816-18. Print.
manuscript
source:
Robert R. Livingston, Notes, New-York Historical Society

Robert R. Livingston's Notes of the New York Ratification Debates (June 23, 1788)

R. R. LIVINGSTON. Expn. name Objs. 1 Knowledge interests feelings 2 Security corruption Admt. No rule determine 100 1000
Economy. Objs. governmt. of genl nature 8 men know these Legislature to instruct. commercial interest not depend on knowing manufactures Wollento Parlmt. Feelings [1] depend on interest Use governt. to check others from momentary passion 2 how representated? representative chosen daily Barometer Representative Shd know & persue true ints. not improper feelings 2 Security Rich intemperate Unfeeling Ambitious change positions examined Richs. excite envy Distrust Examples Aristocratic I had explained Ideal Phantoms shaped? by party Given name Rich wise well educated distinguished Comprizes all poorest if wise virtuous. Members conven himself Wrong how guarded. State divided small district still men this class to be found Combinations greater if 12 than 6. more Aristocrats to qualify Danger what. Extend genl government. contrary to their interest importance at home pulled down brother Aristocrats 24 in Senate not consent 6. in Congress lessen power Calculation 24. deceptions Supposes 1. Means corruption 2. honest men all absent Effect 3. Laws might be repealed Congress. Not consist of more than 26. 8 Objs. same War peace treaties Grants money Sd. restrained by States not so States bound comply Creditor States maritime Rule genl. construed? sense people State Legislature Convention Congress Economy 4 Dols. 400
* * * * *
R. R. LIVINGSTON. Quanty representation
no rule determine1
Objs.
1. Knowledge interest—feelings
2 Security—admitted œconomy—
No rule determine—
Think nt. sufficient—New States—
not in Calculation—
No. [difference?] class—
Objs.
8 men may know—
Commercial Ints. in relation to measures arising—
British par: not woolen drapers
Gentn combine different classes
Ans: Numbers not concur that —combination— Aristocrats—Feelings
Security.
declamation rich men—intemperate—Ambitious—fond change—unfeeling
Ans: expression Riches excite envy no advancmt—but by merit
Aristocratic—influence what unknown Examine— Rich—wise—well educated—distinguished—
Ans: comprizes all unwise &c. this shd. be brought 2 Sons—
Glad word expd. had influence in political examined Admit wrong
increasing numbers increase wrong
Wrong—combinations—12
If Gent. Idea right
Ques: Danger—
1. Extend Genl. Govermt expen[c]e State
Continuity interest—
Watched Aristocratic Senate-
24 to 6—
Calculation—
24. men:—
1. Supposes means corruption
2 Almost incorruptable
3 present corrupted
4. Only make Laws repealed—
No certainty rule only one sense
people—Genl opinion
Senate—Assembly— [- - -] [- - -]
But if besides can State objs. [- - -] in power to check Congress defeat objs.
Convention
Congress—
They might be sent in 4 sets— Economy—kept members away
powers small—
Not so purse & sword—
small districts.
Queries representation more perfect in Kings—than Albany—
Midling Classes loose by overturning governmt otherwise rich—
NB fact otherwise—
Rulers shd. represent people
I assert federal republicks can not exist
Not fact—League of States not exist—

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