The Congressional Register, 15 August 1789
The house resolved itself into a committee of the whole, and resumed the consideration of the report of the committee on the subject of amendments.
Mr. BOUDINOT in the chair. The fourth proposition under consideration being as follows:
1Article I. Sect 9. Between paragraph 2 & 3 insert "no religion shall be established by law, nor shall the equal rights of conscience be infringed."
2Had some doubts of the propriety of the mode of expression used in this paragraph; he apprehended that it was liable to a construction different from what had been made by the committee, he feared it might be thought to have a tendency to abolish religion altogether.
Suggested the propriety of transposing the two members of the sentence.
3Said it would read better if it was, that no religion doctrine shall be established by law.
4Thought the amendment altogether unnecessary, inasmuch as congress had no authority whatever delegated to them by the constitution, to make religious establishments, he would therefore move to have it stuck out.
5Mr. CARROLL. As the rights of conscience are in their nature of peculiar delicacy, and will little bear the gentlest touch of the governmental hand; and as many sects have concurred in opinion that they are not well secured under the present constitution, he said he was much in favor of adopting the words; he thought it would tend more toward conciliating the minds of the people to the government than almost any other amendment he had heard proposed. He would not contend with gentlemen about the phraseology, his object was to secure the substance in such a manner as to satisfy the wishes of the honest part of the community.
6Said he apprehended the meaning of the words to be, that congress should not establish a religion, and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contrary to their conscience; whether the words were necessary or not he did not mean to say, but they had been required by some of the state conventions, who seemed to entertain an opinion that under the clause of the constitution, which gave power to congress to make all laws necessary and proper to carry into execution the constitution, and the laws made under it, enabled them to make laws of such a nature as might infringe the rights of conscience, or establish national religion, to prevent these effects he presumed the amendment was intended, and he thought it as well expressed as the nature of the language would admit.
Said that he feared with the gentleman first up on this subject, that the words might be taken in such a latitude as to be extremely hurtful to the cause of religion: He understood the amendment to mean what had been expressed by the gentleman from Virginia, but others might find it convenient to put another construction upon it.
7 The ministers of their congregations to the eastward, were maintained by the contributions of those who belonged to their society; the expence of building meeting-houses was contributed in the same manner, these things were regulated by bye laws: If an action was brought before a federal court on any of these cases, the person who had neglected to perform his engagements could not be compelled to do it; for a support of ministers, or building of places of worship might be construed into a religious establishment.
8By the charter of Rhode-Island, no religion could be established by law he could give a history of the effects of such a regulation; indeed the people were now enjoying the blessed fruits of it: He hoped therefore the amendment would be made in such a way as to secure the rights of conscience, and a free exercise of the rights of religion, but not to patronize those who professed no religion at all.
9Thought, if the word national was inserted before religion, it would satisfy the minds of honorable gentlemen. He believed that the people feared one sect might obtain a pre-eminence, or two combine together and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform; he thought if the word national was introduced, it would point the amendment directly to the object it was intended to prevent.
10Was not satisfied with that amendment, but he did not wish them to dwell long on the subject; he thought it would be better if it was altered, and made to read in this manner, that congress shall make no laws touching religion, or infringing the rights of conscience.
11Did not like the term national, proposed by the gentleman from Virginia, and he hoped it would not be adopted by the house. It brought to his mind some observations that had taken place in the conventions at the time they were considering the present constitution; it had been insisted upon by those who were called antifœderalists; that this form of government consolidated the union; the honorable gentleman's motion shews, that he considers it in the same light; those who were called antifœderalists at that time complained that they had injustice done them by the title, because they were in favor of a federal government, and the others were in favor of a national one; the fœderalists were for ratifying the constitution as it stood, and the others not until amendments were made. Their names then ought not to have been distinguished by fœderalists and antifœderalists, but rats and antirats.
Withdrew his motion, but observed that the words "no national religion shall be established by law" did not imply that the government was a national one;
12 the question was then taken on mr. Livermore's motion, and passed in the affirmative, 31 for, 20 against.
T
he next clause of the 4th proposition was taken into consideration, and was as follows: "The freedom of speech and of the press, and the right of the people peaceably to assemble and consult for their common good, and to apply to the government for redress of grievances shall not be infringed."
1314Submitted to those gentlemen who had contemplated the subject, what effect such an amendment as this would have; he feared it would tend to make them appear trifling in the eyes of their constituents; what, said he, shall we secure the freedom of speech, and think it necessary at the same time to allow the right assembling? If people freely converse together, they must assemble for that purpose; it is a self-evident unalienable right which the people possess; it is certainly a thing that never would be called in question; it is derogatory to the dignity of the house to descend to such minutiae—he therefore moved to strike out "assemble and."
The committee who framed this report, proceeded on the principle that these rights belonged to the people; they conceived them to be inherent, and all that they meant to provide against, was their being infringed by the government.
15Replied, that if the committee were governed by that general principle, they might have gone into a very lengthy enumeration of rights; they might have declared that a man should have a right to wear his hat if he pleased, that he might get up when he pleased, and go to bed when he thought proper; but he would ask the gentleman whether he thought it necessary to enter these trifles in a declaration of rights, under a government where none of them were intended to be infringed.
16Hoped the words would not be struck out, for he considered them of importance; beside, they were recommended by the states of Virginia and North-Carolina, though he noticed that the most material part proposed by those states was omitted, which was, a declaration that the people should have a right to instruct their representatives; he would move to have those words inserted as soon as the motion for striking out was decided.
17Was also against the words being struck out, because he conceived it to be an essential right; it was inserted in the constitutions of several states, and though it had been abused in the year 1786 in Massachusetts, yet that abuse ought not to operate as an argument against the use of it; the people ought to be secure in the peaceable enjoyment of this privilege, and that can only be done by making a declaration to that effect in the constitution.
18The gentleman from Massachusetts, (mr. Sedgwick) who has made this motion, objects to the clause; because the right is of so trivial a nature; he supposes it no more essential than whether a man has a right to wear his hat or not, but let me observe to him that such rights have been opposed, and a man has been obliged to pull off his hat when he appeared before the face of authority; people have also been prevented from assembling together on their lawful occasions, therefore it is well to guard against such stretches of authority by inserting the privilege in the declaration of rights; if the people could be deprived of the power of assembling under any pretext whatsoever, they might be deprived of every other privilege contained in the clause.
Said if the thing was harmless, and it would tend to gratify the states that had proposed amendments, he should agree to it.
Observed that it had been asserted in the convention of Pennsylvania, by the friends of the constitution, that all the rights and powers that were not given to the government, were retained by the states and the people thereof this was also his own opinion, but as four or five states had required to be secured in those rights by an express declaration in the constitution, he was disposed to gratify them;
19 he thought every thing that was not incompatible with the general good ought to be granted, if it would tend to obtain the confidence of the people in the government, and upon the whole, he thought these words were as necessary to be inserted in the declaration of rights as most in the clause.
Said that his colleague contended for nothing, if he supposed that the people had a right to consult for the common good, because they could not consult unless they met for the purpose.
Replied that if they were understood or implied in the word consult, they were utterly unnecessary and upon that ground he moved to have them struck out.
The question was now put upon mr. Sedgwick's motion, and lost by a considerable majority.
Mr. TUCKER then moved to insert these words, "to instruct their representatives."
Wished the motion had not been made, for gentlemen acquainted with the circumstances of this country and the history of the country from which we separated, differed exceedingly on this point; the members of the house representatives, said he, are chosen for two years, the members of the senate for six.
According to the principles laid down in the constitution, it is presumable that the persons elected know the interests and the circumstances of their constituents, and being checked in their determinations by a division of the legislative power into two branches, there is little danger of error, at least it ought to be supposed that they have the confidence of the people during the period for which they are elected; and if by misconduct, they forfeit it, their constituents have the power of leaving them out at the expiration of that time; thus they are answerable for the part they have taken in measures that may be contrary to the general wish.
Representation is the principle of our government; the people ought to have confidence in the honor and integrity of those they send forward to transact their business; their right to instruct them is a problematical subject. We have seen it attended with bad consequences, both in England and America. When the passions of the people were excited, instructions have been resorted to and obtained, to answer party purposes; and although the public opinion is generally respectable, yet at such moments it has been known to be often wrong; and happy is that government composed of men of firmness and wisdom to discover and resist the popular error.
If, in a small community where the interests, habits, and manners are neither so numerous or diversified, instructions bind not: What shall we say of instructions to this body; can it be supposed that the inhabitants of a single district in a state, are better informed with respect to the general interests of the union than a select body assembled from every part? Can it be supposed that a part will be more desirous of promoting the good of the whole than the whole will of the part? apprehend, sir, that congress will be judges of proper measures, and that instructions will never be resorted to but for party purposes, when they will generally contain the prejudices and acrimony of the party rather than the dictates of honest reason and sound policy.
In England this question has been considerably agitated, the representatives of some towns in parliament, have acknowledged, and submitted to the binding force of instructions, while the majority have thrown off the shackles with disdain. I would not have this precedent influence our decision; but let the doctrine be tried upon its own merits, and stand or fall as it shall be found to deserve.
It appears to my mind, that the principle representation is distinct from an agency which may require written instructions. The great end of meeting is to consult for the common good; but can the common good be discerned without the object is reflected and shewn in every light. A local or partial view does not necessarily enable any man to comprehend it clearly; this can only result from an inspection into the aggregate. Instructions viewed in this light, will be found to embarrass the best and wisest men. And were all the members to take their seats in order to obey instructions, and those instructions were as various as it is probable they would be, what possibility would there exist of so accommodating each to the other, as to produce any act whatever? Perhaps a majority of the whole might not be instructed to agree to any one point; and is it thus the people of the United States propose to form a more perfect union, provide for the common defence, and promote the general welfare?
Sir, I have known within my own time so many inconveniencies and real evils arise from adopting the popular opinions of the moment, that although I respect them as much as any man, I hope this government will particularly guard against them, at least that they will not bind themselves by a constitutional act, and by oath to submit to their influence, if they do, the great object which this government has been established to attain, will inevitably elude our grasp on the uncertain and veering winds of popular commotion. Mr. PAGE.
The gentleman from Pennsylvania tells you, that in England this principle is doubted; how far this is consonant with the nature of the government I will not pretend to say but I am not astonished to find that the administrators of a monarchical government are unassailable by the weak voice of the people, but under a democracy whose great end is, to form a code of laws congenial with the public sentiment, the popular opinion ought to be collected and attended to. Our present object is I presume, to secure to our constituents and to posterity these inestimable rights. Our government is derived from the people, of consequence the people have a right to consult for the common good; but to what end will this be done, if they have not the power of instructing their representatives? Instruction and representation in a republic, appear to me to be inseparably connected; but was I the subject of a monarch, I should doubt whether the public good did not depend more upon the prince's will than the will of the people. I should dread a popular assembly consulting for the public good, because under its influence, commotions and tumults might arise that would shake the foundation of the monarch's throne, and make the empire tremble in expectation. The people of England have submitted the crown to the Hanover family and have rejected the Stuarts, if instructions upon such a revolution were considered binding, it is difficult to know what would have been the effects, it might be well therefore to have the doctrine exploded from that kingdom; but it will not be advanced as a substantial reason in favor of our treading in the same steps.
The honorable gentleman has said, that when once the people have chosen a representative, they must rely on his integrity and judgment during the period for which he is elected. I think, sir, that to doubt the authority of the people to instruct their representatives, will give them just cause to be alarmed for their fate: I look upon it as a dangerous doctrine, subversive of the great end for which the United States have confederated. Every friend of mankind, every well-wisher of his country will be desirous of obtaining the sense of the people on every occasion of magnitude; but how can this be so well expressed as in instructions to their representatives; I hope, therefore, that gentlemen will not oppose the insertion of it in this part of the report.
I hope the amendment will not be adopted, but if our constituents chuse to instruct us, that they may be left at liberty to do so; do gentle-men foresee the extent of these words? If they have a constitutional right to instruct us, it infers that we are bound by those instructions, and as we ought not to decide constitutional questions by implication, I presume we shall be called upon to go further, and expressly declare the members of the legislature bound by the instruction of their constituents; this is a most dangerous principle, utterly destructive of all ideas of an independent and deliberative body which are essential requisites in the legislatures of free governments, they prevent men of abilities and experience from rendering those services to the community that are in their power, destroying the object contemplated by establishing an efficient general government, and rendering congress a mere passive machine.
It appears to me, that the words are calculated to mislead the people by conveying an idea, that they have a right to control the debates of the legislature; this cannot be admitted to be just, because it would destroy the object of their meeting. I think, when the people have chosen a representative, it is his duty to meet others from the different parts of the union, and consult, and agree with them to such acts as are for the general benefit of the whole community; if they were to be guided by instructions, there would be no use in deliberation, all that a man would have to do, would be to produce his instructions and lay them on the table, and let them speak for him, from hence I think it may be fairly inferred, that the right of the people to consult for the common good can go no further than to petition the legislature or apply for a redress of grievances. It is the duty of a good representative to enquire what measures are most likely to promote the general welfare, and after he has discovered them to give them his support; should his instructions therefore coincide with his ideas on any measure, they would be unnecessary; if they were contrary to the conviction of his own mind, he must be bound by every principle of justice to disregard them.
20Was in favor of the right of the people, to assemble and consult for the common good, it had been used in this country as one of the best checks on the British legislature in their unjustifiable attempts to tax the colonies without their consent. America had no representatives in the British parliament, therefore they could instruct none, yet they exercised the power of consultation to a good effect. He begged gentlemen to consider the dangerous tendency establishing such a doctrine, it would necessarily drive the house into a number of factions, there might be different instructions from every state, and the representation from each state would be a faction to support its own measures.
If we establish this as a right, we shall be bound by those instructions; now I am willing to leave both the people and the representatives to their own discretion on this subject, let the people consult and give their opinion, let the representative judge of it, and if it is just, let him govern himself by it as a good member ought to do, but if it is otherwise, let him have it in his power to reject their advice.
What may be the consequence of binding a man to vote in all cases according to the will of others? He is to decide upon a constitutional point, and on this question his conscience is bound by the obligation of a solemn oath; you now involve him in a serious dilemma, if he votes according to his conscience, he decides against his instructions, but in deciding against his instructions he commits a breach of the constitution, by infringing the prerogative of the people secured to them by this declaration. In short, it will give rise to such a variety of absurdities and inconsistencies as no prudent legislature would wish to involve themselves in.
By the checks provided in the constitution, we have good grounds to believe that the very framers of it conceived that the government would be liable to mal-administration, and I presume that the gentlemen of this house do not mean to arrogate to themselves more perfection than human nature has as yet been found to be capable of if they do not, they will admit an additional check against abuses which this, like every other government, is subject to. Instructions from the people will furnish this in a considerable degree.
It has been said that the amendment proposed by the honorable gentleman from South-Carolina, (mr Tucker) determines this point, "that the people can bind their representatives to follow their instructions;" I do not conceive that this necessarily follows: I think the representative, notwithstanding the insertion of these words, would be at liberty to act as he pleased; if he declined to pursue such measures as he was directed to attain, the people would have a right to refuse him their suffrages at a future election.
Now though I do not believe the amendment would bind the representatives to obey the instructions, yet I think the people have a right both to instruct and bind them. Do gentlemen conceive that on any occasion instructions would be so general as to proceed from all our constituents? If they do it is the sovereign will, for gentlemen will not contend that the sovereign will, presides in the legislature; the friends and patrons of this constitution have always declared that the sovereignty resides in the people, and that they do not part with it on any occasion; to say the sovereignty vests in the people, and that they have not a right to instruct and control their representatives, is absurd to the last degree; they must either give up their principle, or grant that the people have a right to exercise their sovereignty to control the whole government, as well as this branch of it; but the amendment does not carry the principle to such an extent, it only declares the right of the people to send instructions; the representative will, if he thinks proper, communicate his instructions to the house, but how far they shall operate on his conduct, he will judge for himself.
The honorable gentleman from Georgia (mr. Jackson) supposes that instructions will tend to generate factions in this house, but he did not see how it could have that effect, anymore than the freedom of debate had. If the representative entertains the same opinion with his constituents, he will decide with them in favor of the measure; if other gentlemen, who are not instructed on the point, are convinced by argument that the measure is proper, they will also vote with them, consequently the influence of debate and of instruction is the same.
The gentleman says further, that the people have the right of instructing their representatives; if so, why not declare it? Does he mean that it shall lay dormant and never be exercised? If so, it will be a right of no utility But much good may result from a declaration in the constitution that they possess this privilege; the people will be encouraged to come forward with their instructions, which will form a fund of useful information for the legislature; we cannot, I apprehend, be too well informed of the true state, condition, and sentiment of our constituents, and perhaps this is the best mode in our power of obtaining information. I hope we shall never shut our ears against that information which is to be derived from the petitions and instructions of our constituents. I hope we shall never presume to think that all the wisdom of this country is concentred within the walls of this house. Men, unambitious of distinctions from their fellow citizens, remain within their own domestic walk, unheard of and unseen, possessing all the advantages resulting from a watchful observance of public men and public measures, whose voice, if we would descend to listen to it, would give us knowledge superior to what could be acquired amidst the cares and bustles of a public life; let us then adopt the amendment, and encourage the dissident to enrich our stock of knowledge with the treasure of their remarks and observations.
I think the committee acted prudently in omitting to insert these words in the report they have brought forward; unfortunately the attempt of proposing amendments should prove abortive, it will not arise from the want of a disposition in the friends of the constitution to do what is right with respect to securing the rights and privileges of the people of America; but from the difficulties arising from discussing and proposing abstract propositions, of which the judgment may not be convinced. I venture to say that if we confine ourselves to an enumeration of simple acknowledged principles, the ratification will meet with but little difficulty Amendments of a doubtful nature will have a tendency to prejudice the whole system; the proposition now suggested, partakes highly of this nature; it is doubted by many gentlemen here; it has been objected to in intelligent publications throughout the union; it is doubted by many members of the state legislatures: In one sense this declaration is true, in many others it is certainly not true; in the sense in which it is true, we have asserted the right sufficiently in what we have done; if we mean nothing more than this, that the people have a right to express and communicate their sentiments and wishes, we have provided for it already
The right of freedom of speech is secured; the liberty of the press is expressly declared to be beyond the reach of this government; the people may therefore publicly address their representatives; may privately advise them, or declare their sentiments by petition to the whole body; in all these ways they may communicate their will.
21 If gentlemen mean to go further, and to say that the people have a right to instruct their representatives in such a sense as that the delegates were obliged to conform to those instructions, the declaration is not true. Suppose they instruct a representative by his vote to violate the constitution, is he at liberty to obey such instructions? Suppose he is instructed to patronize certain measures, and from circumstances known to him, but not to his constituents, he is convinced that they will endanger the public good, is he obliged to sacrifice his own judgement to them? Is he absolutely bound to perform what he is instructed to do? Suppose he refuses, will his vote be the less valid, or the community be disengaged from that obedience which is due from the laws of the union? If his vote must inevitably have the same effect, what sort of a right is this in the constitution to instruct a representative who has a right to disregard the order, if he pleases? In this sense the right does not exist, in the other sense it does exist, and is provided largely for.
The honorable gentleman from Massachusetts, asks if the sovereignty is not with the people at large; does he infer that the people can, in detached bodies, contravene an act established by the whole people? My idea of the sovereignty of the people is, that the people can change the constitution if they please, but while the constitution exists, they must conform themselves to its dictates: But I do not believe that the inhabitants of any district can speak the voice of the people, so far from it, their ideas may contradict the sense of the whole people; hence the consequence that instructions are binding on the representative is of a doubtful, if not of a dangerous nature. I do not conceive, therefore, that it is necessary to agree to the proposition now made; so far as any real good is to arise from it, so far that real good is provided for; so far as it is of a doubtful nature, so far it obliges us to run the risk of losing the whole system.
I am opposed to this motion, because I conceive it will operate as a partial inconvenience to the more distant states; if every member is to be bound by instructions how to vote, what are gentlemen from the extremities of the continent to do?
Members from the neighbouring states can obtain their instructions earlier than those from the southern ones, and I presume that particular instructions will be necessary for particular measures, of consequence we vote perhaps against instructions on their way to us, or we must decline voting at all; but what is the necessity of having a numerous representation; one member from a state can receive the instructions, and by his vote answer all the purposes of many provided his vote is allowed to count for the proportion the state ought to send; in this way the business might be done at a less expence than having one or two hundred members in the house, which had been strongly contended for yesterday.
I think the clause would change the government entirely instead of being a government founded upon representation, it would be a democracy of singular properties.
I differ from the gentleman from Virginia (mr Madison) if he thinks this clause would not bind the representative; in my opinion it would bind him effectually and I venture to assert, without diffidence, that any law passed by the legislature, would be of no force, if a majority of the members of this house were instructed to the contrary provided the amendment become part of the constitution. What would follow from this? Instead of looking in the code of laws passed by congress, your judiciary would have to collect and examine the instructions from the various parts of the union. It follows very clearly from hence, that the government would be altered from a representative one to a democracy wherein all laws are made immediately by the voice of the people.
This is a power not to be found in any part of the earth except among the Swiss Cantons; there the body of the people vote upon the laws, and give instructions to their delegates. But here we have a different form of government, the people at large are not authorised under it to vote upon the law nor did I ever hear that any man required it. Why then are we called upon to propose amendments subversive of the principles of the constitution which were never desired.
Several members now called for the question, and the chairman being about to put the same. Mr GERRY.
Gentlemen seem in a great hurry to get this business through, I think, mr chairman, it requires a further discussion; for my part I had rather do less business and do it well, than precipitate measures before they are fully understood.
The honorable gentleman from Virginia (mr Madison) stated, that if the proposed amendments are defeated, it will be by the delay attending the discussion of doubtful propositions; and he declares this to partake of that quality It is natural, sir, for us to be fond of our own work, we do not like to see it disfigured by other hands. That honorable gentleman brought forward string of propositions; among them was the clause now, proposed to be amended, he is no doubt ready for the question and determined not to admit what we think an improvement. The gentlemen who were on the committee, and brought in the report, have considered the subject, and are also ripe for a decision. But other gentlemen may crave a like indulgence, is not the report before us for deliberation and discussion and to obtain the sense of the house upon it, and will not gentlemen allow us a day or two for these purposes, after they have forced us to proceed upon them at this time? I appeal to their candor and good sense on the occasion, and am sure not to be refused; and I must inform them now that they may not be surprized hereafter, that I wish all the amendments proposed by the respective states to be considered. Gentlemen say it is necessary to finish the subject, in order to reconcile a number of our fellow citizens to the government. If this is their principle, they ought to consider the wishes and intentions which the conventions have expressed for them; if they do this, they will find that they expect and wish for the declaration proposed by the honorable gentleman over the way (mr. Tucker) and of consequence they ought to agree to it, and why it, with others recommended in the same way were not reported, I cannot pretend to say; the committee know this best themselves.
The honorable gentleman near me (mr Stone) says, that the laws passed contrary to instruction will be nugatory And other gentlemen ask, if their constituents instruct them to violate the constitution, whether they must do it?
Sir, does not the constitution declare that all laws passed by congress are paramount to the laws and constitutions of the several states; if our decrees are of such force as to set aside the state laws and constitutions, certainly they may be repugnant to any instructions whatever without being injured there by But can we conceive that our constituents would be so absurd as to instruct us to violate our oath, and act directly contrary to the principles of a government ordained by themselves. We must look upon them to be absolutely abandoned and false to their own interests to suppose them capable of giving such instructions.
22 If this amendment is introduced into the constitution, I do not think we shall be much troubled with instructions; a knowledge of the right will operate to check a spirit that would render instruction necessary.
The honorable gentleman from Virginia asked, will not the affirmative of a member who votes repugnant to his instructions, bind the community as much as the votes of those who conform? There is no doubt, sir, but it will; but does this tend to shew that the constituent has no right to instruct? Surely not. I admit, sir, that instructions contrary to the constitution, ought not to bind, though the sovereignty resides in the people. The honorable gentleman acknowledges that the sovereignty vests there, if so, it may exercise its will in any case not inconsistent with a previous contract. The same honorable gentleman asks if we are to give the power to the people in detached bodies to contravene the government while it exists? Certainly not, nor does the proposed proposition extend to that point, it is only intended to open for them a convenient mode in which they may convey their sense to their agents. The gentleman therefore takes for granted what is inadmissable, that congress will always be doing illegal things, and make it necessary for the sovereign to declare its pleasure.
He says the people have a right to alter the constitution, but they have no right to oppose the government. If while the government exists, they have no right to control it, it appears they have divested themselves of the sovereignty over the constitution. Therefore, our language, with our principles, must change, and we ought to say that the sovereignty existed . in the people previous to the establishment of this government. This will be ground for alarm indeed if it is true, but I trust, sir, too much to the good sense of my fellow citizens ever to believe, that the doctrine will generally obtain in this country of freedom.
If mr. chairman, there appears on one side too great an urgency to dispatch this business, there appears on the other an unnecessary delay and procrastination equally improper and unpardonable. I think this business has been already well considered by the house, and every gentleman in it; however, I am not for an unseemly expedition.
The gentleman last up, has insinuated reflection upon the committee for not reporting all the amendments proposed by some of the state conventions. I can assign him a reason for this, the committee conceived some of them superfluous or dangerous, and found many of them so contradictory that it was impossible to make any thing of them, and this is a circumstance the gentleman cannot pretend ignorance of.
Is it not inconsistent in that honorable member to complain of hurry when he comes day after day reiterating the same train of arguments, and demanding the attention of this body by rising six or seven times on a question. I wish, sir, this subject discussed coolly and dispassionately but I hope we shall have no more reiterations or tedious discussions; let gentlemen try to expedite public business, and their arguments will be conducted in a laconic and consistent manner As to the business of instruction, I look upon it inconsistent with the general good. Suppose our constituents were to instruct us to make paper money no gentleman pretends to say it would be unconstitutional, yet every honest mind must shudder at the thought. How can we then assert that instructions ought to bind us in all cases not contrary to the constitution?
Was not very anxious whether the words were inserted or not, but he had a great deal of doubt about the meaning of this whole amendment, it provides that the people may meet and consult for the common good; does this mean a part of the people in a township or district, or does it mean the representatives in the state legislatures? If it means the latter, there is no occasion for a provision that the legislature may instruct the members of this body.
In some states the representatives were chosen by districts, in this case perhaps, the instructions may be considered coming from the districts, but in other states, each representative was chosen by the whole people; in New-Hampshire it was the case there, the instructions of any particular place would have but little weight, but a legislative instruction would have considerable influence upon each representative. If, therefore, the words mean that the legislature may instruct, he presumed it would have considerable effect, though he did not believe it binding. Indeed he was inclined to pay a deference to any information, he might receive from any number of gentlemen, even bya private letter, but as for full binding force, no instructions contained that quality They could not, nor ought not to have it, because different parties pursue different measures, and it might be expedient, nay absolutely necessary to sacrifice them in mutual concessions.
The doctrine of instructions would hold better in England than here, because the boroughs and corporations might have an interest to pursue, totally immaterial to the rest of the kingdom, in this case it would be prudent to instruct their members in parliament.
Wished the constitution amended without his having any hand in it, but if he must interfere he would do his duty The honorable gentleman from Delaware, had given him an example of moderation and laconic and consistent debate that he meant to follow and would just observe to the worthy gentleman last up, that several states had proposed the amendment, and among the rest New-Hampshire.
There was one remark which escaped him, when he was up before, the gentleman from Maryland (mr Stone) had said that the amendment would change the nature of the government and make it a democracy; now he had always heard that it was a democracy but perhaps he was mislead, and the honorable gentleman was right in distinguishing it by some other appellation, perhaps an aristocracy was a term better adapted to it.
Opposed the idea of the gentleman from New-Hampshire, that the state legislatures had the power of instructing the members of this house; he looked upon it as a subornation of the rights of the people to admit f such an authority We stand not here, said he, the representatives of the state legislatures as under the former congress, but as the representatives of the great body of the people. The sovereignty the independence, and the rights of the states, are intended to be guarded by the senate; if we are to be viewed in any other light, the greatest security the people have for their rights and privileges is destroyed.
But with respect to instructions, it is well worthy consideration how they are to be procured, it is not the opinion of an individual that is to control my conduct; I consider myself representative of the whole union. An individual may give me information, but his sentiments may be in opposition to the sense of the majority of the people: If instructions are to be of any efficacy they must speak the sense of the majority of the people, at least of a state. In a state so large as Massachusetts it will behoove gentlemen to consider how the sense of the majority of the freemen is to be obtained and communicated. Let us take care to avoid the insertion of crude and indigested propositions, more likely to produce acrimony than that spirit of harmony which we ought to cultivate.
Said that he did not understand the honorable gentleman, or was not understood by him; he did not presume peremptorily to say what degree of influence the legislative instructions would have on a representative, he knew it was not the thing in contemplation here, and what he had said respected only the influence it would have on his private judgments.
Said there would be a very great inconvenience attending the establishment of the doctrine contended for by his colleague, those states who had selected their members by districts would have no right to give them f f instructions, consequently the members ought to withdraw in which case the house might be reduced below a majority and not be able, according to the constitution, to do any business at all.
According to the doctrine of the gentleman from New-Hampshire, one part of the government would be annihilated, for of what avail is it that the people have the appointment of a representative, if he is to pay obedience to the dictates of another body.
Several members now rose and called for the question.
Was sorry to see gentlemen so impatient, the more so as he saw there was very little attention paid to any thing that was said, but he would express his sentiments if he was only heard by the chair; he discovered clearly not withstanding what had been observed by the most ingenious supporters of the opposition, that there was an absolute necessity for adopting the amendment, it was strictly compatible with the spirit and the nature of the government, all power vests in the people of the United States, it is therefore a government of the people, a democracy; if it was consistent with the peace and tranquillity of the inhabitants, every freeman would have a right to come and give his vote upon the law but inasmuch as this cannot be done, by reason of the extent of territory and some other causes, the people have agreed that their representatives shall exercise a part of their authority; to pretend to refuse them the power of If instructing their agents, appears to me to deny them a right. One gentleman asks how the instructions are to be collected. Many parts of this; country have been in the practice of instructing their representatives; they found no difficulty in communicating their sense: Another gentleman asks if they were to instruct us to make paper money what we would do? I would tell them, said he, it was unconstitutional, alter that, and we will consider on the point; unless laws are made satisfactory to the people, they will lose their support, they will be abused or done away; this tends to destroy the efficiency of the government.
It is the sense of several of the conventions that this amendment should take place; I think it my duty to support it, and fear it will spread an alarm among our constituents if we decline to do it.
Instructions have frequently been given to the representatives throughout the United States, but the people did not claim as a right that they should have any obligation upon the representative; it is not right that they should: In troublesome times designing men have drawn the people to instruct the representatives to their harm; the representatives have, on such occasions, refused to comply with their instructions. I have known myself that they have been disobeyed, and yet the representative was not brought to account for it, on the contrary he was carressed and re-elected while those who have obeyed them, contrary to their private sentiments, have ever after been despised for it: Now, if the people considered it an inherent right in them to instruct their representatives, they would have undoubtedly punished the violation of them. I have no idea of instructions, unless they are obeyed; a discretionary power is incompatible with them.
The honorable gentleman who was up last says, if he was instructed to make paper money he would tell his constituents it was unconstitutional; I believe that is not the case, for this body would have a right to make paper money, but if my constituents were to instruct me to vote for such a measure, I would disobey them let the consequence be what it would.
The honorable gentlemen who are opposed to the motion of my colleague, do not treat it fairly; they suppose that it is meant to bind the representative to conform to his instructions, the mover of this question, I presume to say has no such thing in idea; that they shall notice them and obey them as far as is consistent and proper, may be very just; perhaps they ought to produce them to the house, and let them have as much influence as they deserve; but nothing further, I believe, is contended for I rose on this occasion, not so much to make any observations upon the point immediately under consideration, as to beg the committee to consider the consequences that may result from an undue precipitancy and hurry; nothing can distress me more than to be obliged to notice what I conceive to be somewhat improper in the conduct of so respectable a body Gentlemen will reflect how difficult it is to remove error when once the passions are engaged in the discussion, temper and coolness are necessary to complete what must be the work of time; it cannot be denied but what the present constitution is imperfect, we must therefore take time to improve it. If gentlemen are pressed for want of time, and are disposed to adjourn the sessions of congress at a very early period, we had better drop the subject amendments, and leave it until we have more leisure to consider and do the business effectually; for my part would rather sit till this day twelve month, than have this all-important subject inconsiderately passed over; the people have already complained that the adoption of the constitution was done in too hasty a manner, what will they say of us if we press the amendments with so much haste.
It has been asserted, mr chairman, that the people of America do not require this right; I beg leave to ask the gentleman from Massachusetts, whether the constitution of that state does not recognize that right, and the gentlemen from Maryland, whether their declaration of rights does not expressly secure it to the inhabitants of that state? These circumstances, added to what has been proposed by the state conventions as amendments to this constitution, pretty plainly declares the sense of the people to be in favor of securing to themselves and to their posterity a right of this nature.
Said that the declaration of rights prefixed to the constitution of Maryland, secured to everyman a right of petitioning the legislature for a redress of grievances, in a peaceable and orderly manner.
I am not positive with respect to the particular expression in the declaration of rights of the people of Maryland, but the constitutions of Massachusetts, Pennsylvania and North-Carolina, all of them recognize, in express terms, the right of the people to give instruction to their representatives. I do not mean to insist particularly upon this amendment, but I am very well satisfied that those that are reported and likely to be adopted by this house, are very far from giving satisfaction to our constituents; they are not those solid and substantial amendments which the people expect; they are little better than whip-syllabub, frothy and full of wind, formed only to please the palate, or they are like a tub thrown out to a whale, to secure the freight of the ship and its peaceable voyage; in my judgment they will not be gratified by the mode we have pursued in bringing them forward; there was a committee of eleven appointed, and out of them I think there were five who were members of the convention that formed the constitution, such gentlemen having already given their opinion with respect to the perfection of the work, may be thought improper agents to bring forward amendments; upon the whole, I think it will be found that we have done nothing but lose our time, and that it will be better to drop the subject now and proceed to the organization of the government.
Enquired of mr. chairman, what was the question before the committee, for really debate had become so desultory as to induce him to think it was lost sight of altogether.
Was averse to entering on the business at first, but since they had proceeded so far, he hoped they would finish it; he said, if gentlemen would confine themselves to the question, when they were speaking, that the business might be done in a more agreeable manner; he said he was against the amendment proposed by the gentleman from S. Carolina (mr. Tucker,) because every member on this floor ought to consider himself the representative of the whole union, and not of the particular district which had chosen him, as their decisions were to bind every individual of the confederated states, it was wrong to be guided by the voice of a single district, whose interests might happen to clash with that of the general good, and unless instructions were to be considered binding, they were altogether superfluous.
Was unwilling to take up any more of the time of the committee, but on the other hand, he was not willing to be silent after the charges that had been brought against the committee, and the gentleman who introduced the amendments, by the honorable members on each side of him, (mr. Sumter and mr. Burke.) Those gentlemen say that we are precipitating the business, and insinuate that we are not acting with candor; I appeal to the gentlemen who have heard the voice of their country to those who have attended the debates of the state conventions, whether the amendments now proposed, are not those most strenuously required by opponents to the constitution? It wished that was some security should be given for those great and essential rights which they had been taught to believe were in danger. I concurred, in the convention of Virginia, with those gentlemen, so far as to agree to a declaration of those rights which corresponded with my own judgment, and the other alterations which I had the honor to bring forward before the present congress. I appeal to the gentlemen on this floor who are desirous of amending the constitution, whether these proposed are not compatible with what are required by our constituents; have not the people been told that the rights of conscience, the freedom of speech, the liberty of the press, and trial by jury were in jeopardy; that they ought not to adopt the constitution until those important rights were secured to them. But while I approve of these amendments, I should oppose the consideration at this time, of such as are likely to change the principles of the government, or that are of a doubtful nature; because apprehend there is little prospect of obtaining the consent of two-thirds of both houses of congress, and three-fourths of the state legislatures, to ratify propositions of this kind; therefore, as a friend to what is attainable, I would limit it to the plain, simple, and important security that has been required. If I was inclined to make no alteration in the constitution I would bring forward such amendments of dubious in order as were a cast, to have the whole rejected.
Never entertained an idea of charging gentlemen with the want of candor; but he would appeal to any man of sense and candor, whether the amendments contained in the report were any thing like the amendments required by the states of New-York, Virginia, New-Hampshire and Carolina, and having these amendments in his hand, he turned to them to shew the difference, concluding that all the important amendments were omitted in the report.
Understood his colleague, who has just sat down, to have asserted that the amendment under consideration was contained in the constitution of the state of South-Carolina, this was not the fact.
Said he mentioned the state of North-Carolina, and there it was inserted in express terms. The question was now called for from several parts of the house, but a desultory conversation took place before the question was put; at length the call becoming very general, it was stated from the chair, and determined in the negative, 10 rising in favor of it, and 41 against it. The question was now taken on the 2d clause of the 4th proposition as originally reported and agreed to.
Moved the committee to rise and report progress, which being agreed to; Mr. Speaker having resumed the chair, Mr AMES
Moved to discharge the committee from any further proceeding, he was led to make the motion from two considerations; First, That as the committee were not restrained in their discussions, a great deal of time was consumed in unnecessary debate; And second, That as the constitution required two thirds of the house to acquiesce in amendments, the decisions of the committee, by a simple majority might be set aside for want of the constitutional number to support them in the house. He further observed that it might have an evil influence, if alterations agreed to in committee were not adopted by the house.
Mr. Smith (of S. C.) was in favor of the motion.
Thought that the object of the motion was to prevent such a thorough discussion of the business as the nature of it demanded. He called upon gentlemen to recollect the consistency of his honorable colleague, who had proposed to refer the subject to a select committee, lest an open and full examination should lay bare the muscles and sinews of the constitution; he had succeeded on that occasion, and the business was put into the hands of a select committee, he now proposes to curtail the debate, because gentlemen will not swallow the propositions as they stand, when their judgment and their duty requires to have them improved. Will this house, said he, agree that an important subject like this shall have less consideration than the most trifling business yet come before us? I hope they will not; if they are tired of it, let it be postponed until another session, when it can be attended with leisure and good temper. Gentlemen now feel the weather warm, and the subject is warm, no wonder it produces some degree of heat; perhaps as our next will be a winter session, we may go thro' more coolly and dispassionately.
Seconded Mr. Ames's motion, thinking there was little probability of getting through with the business, if gentlemen were disposed to offer motions, and dwell long upon them in committee, when there was no likelihood they would meet the approbation of two-thirds of both houses, and three-fourths of the state legislatures. Mr. Gerry moved to call the yeas and noes on the motion.
Begged gentlemen to consider, that the motion tended to deprive the members of that freedom of debate which they had heretofore been indulged in, and prevented the speaker from giving his sentiments; he was sorry to see this hurry and hoped the subject would be fairly treated, otherwise the people might think they were unjustly dealt by They would have a right to suppose with the honorable gentleman from Carolina (mr. Burke) that we meant nothing more than to throw out a tub to the whale.
Would oppose the motion, and join in calling the yeas and nays, because its object must be to preclude debate. He was certain the subject was so variegated, and at the same time so important, that it could not be thoroughly discussed in any other manner than in a committee of the whole; and unless it was discussed in a satisfactory manner he apprehended it would occasion a great deal of mischief. He said the people knew and were sensible that in ratifying the present constitution, they parted with their liberties, but it was under a hope that they would get them back again: Whether this was to be the case or not, he left it to time to discover, but the spirit which seemed now to prevail in the house was no favorable omen. He begged gentlemen to treat the subject with fairness and candor, and not depart from their usual mode of doing business.
Had said he would support the motion under an impression, that it was useless to carry a measure through the committee by a small majority which was unlikely to meet the approbation of two-thirds of the house; but as gentlemen appeared so desirous of pursuing the common routine of doing business, he would withdraw his support.
Was in hopes the honorable mover would have seen the impropriety of his motion, and have withdrawn it, but as he had not, he would presume to ask him upon what principle it was founded. Is it to precipitate the business, and prevent an investigation; or is it because the committee have spent some time on it, and made no progress? He thought the latter was not the case, because the committee had proceeded as far in it as could reasonably be expected for the time. The gentleman, says he, is apprehensive it may do harm to have propositions agreed to in committee, and rejected by the house; certainly there is no foundation for this apprehension, or the clause in the constitution, requiring the consent of two thirds of the legislature to amendments, is formed on wrong principles. If the propositions are reasonable in themselves, they ought to be admitted, but if they are improper, they ought to be rejected; we would not presume to prevent our constituents from contemplating the subject in their own mind.
Is this haste produced by a desire to adjourn? He was as desirous of adjourning as any member; but he would not sacrifice the duty he owed the public to his own private convenience.
Hoped the gentleman would withdraw his motion, because it would have a disagreeable aspect to leave the business in the unfinished state it now stood; he thought it had better been altogether let alone.
Withdrew his motion, and laid another on the table requiring two thirds of the committee to carry a question, and after some desultory conversation the house adjourned.