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title:“Notes on Debates by John Lansing”
authors:John Lansing, Jr.
date written:1787-6-25

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last updated:Jan. 22, 2013, 8:02 a.m. UTC
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Lansing, John, Jr. "Notes on Debates by John Lansing." Supplement to Max Farrand's The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787. Ed. James H. Hutson. New Haven: Yale University Press, 1987. 112-13. Print.
Farrand, 4:28-37

Notes on Debates by John Lansing (June 25, 1787)

Monday, June 25, 1787
John Lansing: Notes on Debates 4th Resolve. C. Pinkney—We are peculiarly situated—We have no Distinction of Ranks—When Executive hereditary or elective for Life Peers necessary. Not above 100 Men in the United States so rich as to be dangerous—these cannot be considered as a distinct Class on a national Scale—three Classes—professional Commercial and agriculturel—there Interests now generally resolvable into the last. He is therefore for something like the Virginia System, but State Sovereignties must be retained. The United States too extensive to furnish a general Legislature competent to the Management of domestic Concerns. States ought to be divided into five Classes—to have from one to five Votes. Reed—The Confederacy similar to Articles of Co-partnership—Articles insufficient—before they are revised adjust old Accounts—apply all Lands acquired and protected by common Arms to discharge public Debt—this done we may make another Agreement. Wilson—The System of Hen. IV to unite Europe as a Republic had trifling Objects to those we are now engaged in attaining—The Happiness of the Globe involved in it—he has distinct Ideas of State and general Government—has Objection to any Part of Legislature being elected by the State Legislatures—it will perpetuate local Prejudices—States are not intended as component Parts of general Government—they need not be represented—The Objects of national Government will be—Commerce—War—Treaties Coins and other great national Concerns. On those Occasions the Proportions of Representation so as to give each State a proper Weight in the Government may be preserved, in the second Branch as well as the first. If both Branches are elected from same Source they will have same Interests. Moves that the second Branch be elected by Electors to be elected by the Citizens of the United States.1 Elseworth—Every Representative will have local Ideas however elected. No existing and distinct Interests to form Ballances—Republican Governments cannot exist throughout U. S. but by support of individual States. Virginia cannot give Law to Kentuckey. Massachusetts cannot extend her Government 100 Miles from Capital. These are strong Instances against an Extension of Republican Government on a general Scale—but the Inhabitants of every State are warmly attached to their several Constitutions this another Reason. Johnson—Individuality of States ought to be preserved. Mason—If Self Defence necessary to general Government it will be as necessary to individual States—.this can only be done by representing the States. On Question on Wilson's Motion—lost. Question on Election by Legislature. 9 Ayes—2 Noes. Agreed to expunge sufficient to ensure their Independence. 7 Ayes—4 Noes. Duration of Senate then considered—seven Years. Gorham—wished the upper House to be formed into Classes. Randolph assents—State Governments will be perpetually tending to the Subversion of general Government—this would give general Government Consistency. Reed—good Behaviour would be more effectual—If Mr. Hamilton would make the Motion he will second him. C. C. Pinkney—thinks 4 Years sufficient—otherwise Representatives might be induced to become Inhabitants of State in which Seat of Government established. Madison—this will weaken it too much. On Question on striking out seven Years. 7 Ayes-3 Noes. Gorham moved 6 Years—5 Ayes—5 Noes—1 divided. (H [amilton] and myself voted Neg. on Question.) On Question five Years. 5 Ayes—5 Noes—1 divided. Morris moved that the Senate should be elected for and continue in Office during good Behaviour. Not seconded. Adjourned till to Morrow.

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